"A Disturbing Trend" by Digital Jedi

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• (June 27, 2007, 07:05:52 AM)

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[Digital Jedi]

"This is probably the best format for yu-gi-oh since the ban list started!" -GrandMaster at Pojo.com

This is not the first time I've heard the comments made in the this particular thread. And personally, while I'm not trying to be a naysayer, or looking at glass half empty, I'm not convinced that we (meaning the meta in general) are making any progress towards the end of CC. No, in fact, I see things as unchanged, and perhaps a little worse off then they were.

I said this on the Lair, but I'll say it here as well. Just because I see 5 or 6 different decks being played at the top tier level, does not say to me that that there is no CC, when all I'm seeing is the same 5 or 6 decks on every site and tourney. Sure, that's a little more variety then Chaos, but "less stagnation" is not the same as "more variety". Not in my eyes. If there were ten to twenty top tier decks, their would still be CC, because everyone would be copy catting those ten to twenty decks. That's not variety in my opinion. That's just more decks to make copies of.

For me to believe that dissolution of CC is on the horizon, what I need to see has nothing to do with the top tier decks. It would certainly influence what happens up their, but that's just the thing. For CC to truly be on it's way out, it's the players who should be shaping the top tier decks, not the top tier decks shaping the players.

Compare it to the state of music at any given generation. For every innovative or just different kind of artist that suddenly takes the industry by storm, there are an army of copy cat artists, or artist deeply influenced by that one, who follow endlessly in his or her wake, dressing, singing, acting and performing using the same template as their forebearer. While not necessarily a bad thing, if this is all we ever saw, we would never have the variety in music that we do today. Everyone wanted to be like Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys a few years ago. But what would have happened if everyone was still trying to do that?

Creativity breads positivity in my mind. And I think today's duelists were so sick of seeing one or two deck types, that five or six seems like a wonderful thing. Maybe. At best, all I can think of it as, is a breather. But do I think for a minute our mission charter has changed? Not a bit. There is a still a fight to be fought out there. There is still potential that is being untapped. When the players start making the meta, rather the meta making the players, then, and only then, will I feel our fight is coming to an end.

[Oceanus]

While there is still work to be done, we can't neglect the fact that progress is being made. Yes, there IS more variety, what more are you searching for? What better can be achieved than a larger variety? New deck types with new ideas has been introduced and found worthy, so it is natural that other people will use it for themselves, we can't stop it. If we got a well-balanced Voltanis-Seraphim deck into a Top 8, what would the result be? It may become a new variety factor, and it could very well become a CC. We can't stop others from adopting it for their own goals.

One thing I can say for the CSC, is that there's defiantly a factor to be considered in the CC environment- New releases. Every deck that Top 8'd Montreal had been already proved effective and was there because of the good ol' balance it has in a duel. However, the other part of the Top 8 were a series of decks that revolved around old and new strategies, both which were powered up with new cards. I think if there is any goal the CSC needs to get out, is that there is ALREADY great strategies to use out there, those which are old cards. Those are the decks that don't get more than a week of praise and torment for a week or two. I remember Matt Stille and his Gearfrieds, they Top 8'd! Where's his deck now? His publicity lasted less than a month, and it was back to the same old, same old stuff.

I'm going to set it as my goal that all strategies available don't deserve to be simply discarded because when tested with the metagame cards, it didn't work. People give up on the ideas too fast! I will see to it that original strategies will not become br0k3n just because Advanced Ritual Art came out, etc. I want to see strategies dedicated to that have all the support they need, and get a little upgrade each set, not an instant win condition.

Players don't play old cards, or have patience with them because they know them, and they're not interesting to them. The majority wants to use what's both effective that's been proved and such, or use an idea that works and wins easily because of some silly single card edition from a new set.

Cheers.

[cb_one]

I see the Meta changing...somewhat. Athough I don't frequent tournys as much, when I do go, basically the same decks are being played, with one or two different/rogue decks thrown in the mix.

I am happy to see some of the cards/themes that are comning out though. Instead of having 1-2 playable cards, we are having a dozen or more that aren't just playable, but good.

I will have to agree w/Oceanus on his statement about people giving up on ideas too fast. I see it all the time, especially with kids. Unfortunatley with sites like Metagame, mindless, unoriginal thinkers flock to, just to see whats fresh. They go back and build whatever they see. With sites like this, if we can push originalty, and show that it wins, these same people will come here, or sites like this. 

Just my rambling 2 cents.

[alan75]

What i see when i look at the latest tourny info an granted i dont get any tourny time myself, take one of the latest tourny's the winner ended up versing 3 mirror matches now why do you think that happens because people don't trust there own deck skills they see a deck that works for someone else, an they make the same deck for themselves granted they change 2-3 cards But that doesn't mean they sat up late trying to put together a deck like i have on many a night fine tuning ready for my weekly comp it just means they (an i can't blame them for wanting to win have) fear what people will think of them for not running a deck that is'nt popular i'll bet dollars to donuts that nearly every duelist out there has a deck at home that ahs cards in it that there peers would never run the thing i think we need to change is the way people are treated for thinking outsaide the box instead of shunning them for doing so. Good  Dueling

[bjswp56]

While I'm very pleased with the progress this game has made, I agree with DJ in how I am not satisfied.  I can't count the number of times of been on the Netrep database searching for hours for some new ideas.  I find plenty of interesting stuff there, just nothing that really intrigues me.  But surely, with the diverse population of Yugioh players out there, there is a creative idea that will suit someone's interests and aspirations.  Yet, so many decks are left unbuilt and the ideas behind them fade from memory...until of course someone else builds it and Top Eights with it at a SJC.  Then everyone jumps on the band wagon and makes copies of that same deck, with minor changes of course.  Fatefully, any deck that at least Top Eights a tournament that had some level of coverage or more than 10 people in attendance will be held in high regard; someone's going to copy the idea for themselves.  Yugioh seems almost like a race to make the next good deck so that it can be used over and over again by people who have never even met the original creator.  I guess that my point is that even though it's not ideal, we must accept the way things are.  It is true that 5 or 6 different decks is better than 1 or 2.  Diversity is diversity however you look at it.  What we must do is simple in thought yet will be difficult in execution.  We have to take the ideas that we have come up with and prove that it is possible to do be successful while being totally creative.  We don't have to completely ignore cards that happen to be in CC decks, but we must think a bit more outside the box to trully get our message across. 

[Krishna]

In my oppinion the new cards that are coming out have too much power. When I bring cards from Metal Raiders or other sets to a tourney for trade, the people there are like "Wow, that's neat!!!" For instance, I starting running Mysterious Guard in a warrior deck for bounce and spin. No one expected it, and I won several games because of it. Why not make cards to support the older cards, like these? I was a big fan of Gate Guardian. I like Toons! And the Dark Scorpions were so cool!

But goodluck with these decks these days. Instead They are making new decktypes (Aliens, Volcanic, Crystal beasts, Etc.) instead of working on the ones that are already out there.

Why not make cards that would never be used more useable? It's like they gave up on the older cards.

[Maruno]

Once Yu-Gi-Oh! GX dies (and not too soon), we'll get over these new Deck themes.  Gods know I've had enough of these E-Heroes.  But there are the Gladial Beasts and Cloudian monsters in the soon-to-be-released GLAS, which as far as I know do not feature in the show.

I agree with you, though.  Too many new themes, when there are potentially great themes already existing (Amazoness, Toon, Gate Guardian, Dark Scorpions, Insects, etc. etc.).  Unfortunately, whoever it is who makes up the new cards doesn't seem to like older cards.  We can only hope he'll have a change of heart and invent some really nice things (probably including a Gemini monster or two per theme, because it's supposed to be popular).

To drift to a different topic for a moment, I don't like what they're doing with E-Heroes and Neo-Spacian things.  Far too many support cards for them, and far too many E-Heroes in the first place, and they STILL don't amount to anything really impressive.  These cards just take up space in booster sets that could otherwise be used to invent, say, Toon Jinzo or Amazoness Chieftain.  Just imagine the sudden demand for old and would-be pivotal cards that haven't been reprinted elsewhere.  It'd be a nice change to the current system of "invent 2 new Deck themes per set, then mostly ignore them later (unless it includes "E-Hero" or "Neo-Spacian" in its card name).

If anyone knows how to contact the card creator with a petition for more support for older cards, I'd be very happy to join in.

[Krishna]

And it's seriously not too hard to come up with new cards for the old themes. Everyone does it!
I just popped out this one this morning:

Inaba Toon Rabbit, This card cannot be Special Summoned. This card returns to the owner's hand during the End Phase of the turn that this card is Normal Summoned or flipped face-up. This monster can attack your opponent's Life Points directly. Once per turn you can tribute any number of monster tokens on your side of the field to increase the attack of this monster by 400 for each one untill the end of the turn.

I agree with you, there should be a patition, but I doubt it'll do anything because all the new kids playing the game actually LIKE the E Heros.

I thought they were neat at first. But they are starting to get a little annoying...

Also, by focusing more on the new stuff they are making the older stuff go bad. Too much support for the new.

and another thing! I feel that creating a monster with 2000 attack and no downside is a bad idea!!! By making stronger monsters they are enforcing people to stop using strategy...

blah I hate where this game is going.... I sure hope they manage to fix things soon.

[englishchef]

and another thing! I feel that creating a monster with 2000 attack and no downside is a bad idea!!! By making stronger monsters they are enforcing people to stop using strategy...

Should we go back to the days when a decent 7 star monster had 2300 attack? Or when 1650 attack monsters were considered beatsticks? 

That said, many of the older cards do have suprising applications, and the CSC folks do delight in reinvestigating them.
I've been trying Ready for intercepting recently, and desert sunlight is still suprising to a lot of people...

That said, I'm still playing Inaba white rabbit and its been 3 years since it came out...

[Krishna]

I love Ready for Intersepting! I was using it in my Warrior Spellcaster deck that had Mysterious Guards. It worked very well actually!

And all I'm saying about the monsters who are getting stronger and stronger is that, eventually monsters will be so strong that it would be a mistake to use strategic weak monsters because if you do, you'll be caught in a situation where it could cost you too much lifepoints.

Take with my Final Attack orders deck for instance. In a good for me situation I summon Goblin Attack force, flip FAO, and rush into a face down magician of faith, or something weak, and deal it massive damage.

But at the same time we've got Cyber Dragons, Gene Warped Warwolf, and many other monsters that you can equip with a Big Bang shot or something to trample the weaker monsters.

I guess it all depends on how much of a risk you're willing to take. As monsters get stronger, people will be less willing to take risks, and CC will dominate.

[Dillie-O]

It is an interesting trend with the ATK power. I remember how rare Gemini Elf was as the sole 1900 attacker with no drawbacks, and then the influx started. I'll admit I  was happy we got Archfiend Soldier, but I was shocked when I heard about Warwolf. Then again, there is also now the 2600 ATK Single tribute monster, so Summoned Skull loses that title.

For the few anomalies out there, I think the game is striving to be more balanced. Notice how the Chaos Monsters eventually were replaced by similar effects, but more of a cost. MST now has Twister as a compliment, and you do have some cards like Mirror Force available in JustiBreak, but you have to specialize in order to get the effect.

I think overall Monarchs are hurting the game a bit. I can see how they aren't completely broken in that they are single tributes and their effects only activate when tribute summoned, but having them all available in triplicate still, plus plenty of special summon options to cover the tribute that makes things crazy. Jinzo was limited for a reason, he was the original Monarch 8^D

[Dasher]

I still hope that they will restrict Monarchs, so people who will want to play Monarch deck will have to play all of them and they will be sort of unique in a deck. Or that they will remake them so they will only work in decks that revolves aroud same atribute, like Raiza in Wind deck, Mobius in Water etc.

[Krishna]

I don't think I'd say the game is striving to be more ballanced, I think I'd want to say that it is ~begging~ to be more ballanced, but I feel that the designers either don't know how to do that, or are playing favorites.

[Dillie-O]

I guess the question becomes how do you make the game balanced without stripping everybody to vanilla status?

[englishchef]

I guess the question becomes how do you make the game balanced without stripping everybody to vanilla status?

Previously, the answer seemed to be "lets make cards that can go in anyones deck, so that everyone will essentially be using 75% the same cards, and if everyone is running the same cards, then it is balanced!"

Nowadays, it seems more like they are banning the previously powerful "use anywhere" cards if favour of cards that are as powerful, but only work in specific decks. Consequently balancing decks becomes the artform, rather than balancing cards...

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